switch today. see him? he's not checkin' the stats. he's finding some investment ideas with merrill. eyes on the ball baby. digital tools so impressive, you just can't stop. what would you like the power to do? frank is a fan of fast. he's a fast talker. a fast walker. thanks, gary. and for unexpected heartburn... frank is a fan of pepcid. it works in minutes. nexium 24 hour and prilosec otc can take one to four days to fully work. pepcid. strong relief for fans of fast. hi, everyone. the news out of ukraine is intensifying pressure on the west for a stronger response for the war from russia, which is

now entering its sixth week. today more powerful evidence emerged confirming russia's role in carrying out the atrocities in towns like bucha and others. from "the washington post," germany's foreign intelligence service claims to have intercepted radio communications in which russian soldiers discussed carrying out indiscriminate killings in. ukraine. in two separate communications, russian soldiers describe how they questioned soldiers as well as civilians and proceed to shoot them. it's according to an intelligence official familiar with the findings who, like others, spoke anonymously because of the sensitivity. the evidence of war crimes in bucha has prompted actions in the united nations and in washington, d.c., today. congress earlier today passed a bill suspending trade relations with russia, and at the u.n., members voted to kick russia off of the human rights council. all of it seemingly tangential to what ukraine is asking for right now this hour. ahead of a meeting of nato

foreign ministers, ukraineukraip diplomat had one request. >> my agenda is very simple. it has only three items on pit. it's weapons, weapons, and weapons. >> adding more urgency to that call, signs that moscow is etting its sights on eastern ukraine. in address, president zelenskyy warned that russia is amaussing troops to, quote, realize their ill ambitions in region where is russian-backed separatists have been fighting a civil war since 2014. the chairman of the joint chief, general mark milley, told congress today basically the same thing, that russia is regrouping and the war is far from over. watch. >> what does winning look like? i think winning is ukraine remains a free and independent nation as it's been since 1991 with their territorial integrity intact. that will be very difficult, a long slog. this is not an easy fight they're involved in. >> the specter of another bucha,

another mariupol or a whole lot more of buchas, a whole lot more mariupols now looms over eastern ukraine, even as we're still getting our first sense of the scale of the brutality inflicted on the ukrainian civilian population in the areas russian forces previously occupied. nbc's gabe gutierrez was in one hard-hit town recently taken by ukrainian forces. take a listen to his reporting. >> reporter: here in the kyiv suburb of irpin, the recovery is already under way. you can see some of this destruction here. these damaged cars burnt out right next to a school. this is a playground right here. residents here say this was clearly not a military target. and many of them evacuated. you can see right over here, shelling hit this apartment building more than a week ago, right before the russians pulled out, residents said. we just were up there, and the

man who lived there, nikolai, lived there with his family, three kids, and thankfully he managed to evacuate. some of the other residents did not. they stayed here despite all of this. we spoke with another person who lived in this neighborhood. she told us there were three shallow graves dug where several residents had passed away in the past couple weeks. you can see the shatter windows, the blast wave that destroyed so many apartments here. and we're told that there is still at least one body still in one of these balconies they haven't been able to reach yet. you can see right over here another piece of shelling destroyed so much of this apartment complex. this is just some of the destruction that we've been seeing in suburb after suburb in and around kyiv. what's remarkable here is that that reconstruction effort is

already beginning. but the residents here are just so angry. they spent several weeks under russian occupation. and the question moving forwarder is what could happen next? how can there be any sort of peace process when you look at something like this, civilians clearly targeted? there is a lot of talk about potentially chopping up part of the country and giving it to russia, but so many of these residents say that's not an option. this is their country. and they don't see how this can move forward. while the russians are now pushing to the east and the south, they are now out of the kyiv suburbs. but this recovery will take some time as this war drags on. >> our colleague, nbc's gabe gutierrez, in irpin. joining our coverage, our friend

is a former adviser to president zelenskyy, still living near kwooef his young family. and a washington correspondent for puck news. igor, we first saw what gabe is reporting in a single image of a shot by "the new york times" war correspondent. she took a picture of a whole family killed by russian shelling. they put that picture on the front page of their newspaper. it was the first i think time that everyone saw that the killing and targeting of civilians was the russian strategy. when you see how many people have lost their lives, have been targeted and killed by the russians, as cameras are now able to go into places like bucha, what does that make you think? >> oh, it's absolutely horrible.

look, all i can put things into perspective for you. so there was this story that went viral out of bucha, i think, i could be mistaken here, about a family whose house got raided by the russian soldiers. luckily the family survived, be they kidnapped a large breed dog and ate it in front of the family, killed it and ate it. it was a horrible story, but, you know, i spoke with my older daughter, and it turns out it was actually a family of her friend. so -- and that makes you think, because, look, i've lost -- i tried counting, i lost it, 12 people, distant relative, and i'm considered one of the lucky ones because i haven't lost immediate family members, my house is still standing. but kids are beginning to lose kids. and that proves the all end of scale of this horrible

destruction into perspective. when kids know kids who died, you know something that is really wrong with the world. >> you once gave us a really horrifying analogy to imagine what it's like to live in kyiv right now. and it was -- i think it was about protecting your kids. you said, mass shooting at a shopping mall, and when the shooting gets closer, you know, you think this might be it, and you cover your children's bodies with your own, you pray for the best, and when the shooting growings more faint, you sort of have this temporary reprieve and relief. i wonder if you can tell me what it feels like now -- and we don't know exactly where you are -- but with this russian retreat from the areas around kyiv, these horrors took place very, very close to you. you're saying your daughters know kids who lost their lives. this had to play out close to you.

did you know what was happening in bucha and irpin? >> well, that's the toughest part is i did not because, you know, what i do and because of the people i know. so i was one of the first people to find out. and, you know, obviously it's incredibly horrifying to know that, you know, you could be next. but at the same time, what worried me more was the fact that, you know, i can protect my 2 1/2-year-old from this, but my 13-year-old, she has her iphone and is on social media, and we knew she was going to see the pictures and she's going to hear the stories and i'm going to have to explain. and the best analogy i can give you, i went to this boarding school in lie chester, and we watched "schindler's list." it was tough to watch it even though it was 14. my daughter, she has to live in a world where that is happening.

not people just on a screen but people she knows. there are no words to describe that, basically. >> how is she doing? >> she's doing fine. she kind of -- she's thinking about, you know, trips to disney land, so i'm trying to see if i can get them into paris for at least a week, so hopefully that is going to happen. and, you know, i don't know how much time i have, so i'll give you an uplifting story as well. my favorite one, my favorite one that i've heard today was about this clever, creative solution our soldiers have found not to waste ammunition, not to waste artillery shells. we don't do carpet bombing. what they would do, take a commercial with a camera and camouflage it to look like something out of the worst "terminator" movie. they drive that where the russian soldiers are. what would you do if you're a

russian soldier and you see something like that? you run. where do you run to? your mama. because you don't have that, you run to your base. that way they lead us tho their bases and camouflage works, and then our artillery shoots at the base and that way we protect, you know, our civilians, we protect, you know, the land of ukraine from any collateral damage, and we don't waste any shells. so, you know, if there's a major problem, just be creative. >> it's a fantastic story but also one of the main undercurrents that we've talked to others about. underestimating the prowess of the ukraine military is a global affliction right now. tell me, just give me your analysis of how the actual sort of state of the ukrainian military and what you're able to do with what you have is going. we played the sound of the call for more weapons.

i had the pentagon spokesperson on on a daily basis asking what are you sending and when. tell me the state of what you still need and how the military is performing in your view. >> well, i don't think i can outdo minister klueba. we need weapons, weapons, weapons. we definitely where more weapons than we had before and the tide are turning, people start being more optimistic. so, you know, the upcoming bat offensively donbas, we could actually win that. the ukrainian army is incredibly creative with what we have. anti-tank munitions being used to shoot down advanced helicopters. they've used artillery to shoot down helicopters. and, look, we do so well with what we have and now i can kind of think one of the reasons not

giving weapons fast enough is because the world is afraid we'll reach moscow before this war is over. that's a completely different risk. >> invoking moscow, i mean, there's a temptation to sort of cover the russian disinformation side, which everybody the world over knows is a lie. even the disinformation around the slaughter in bucha was disproven on satellite imagery i think within 12 hours of journalists and people getting back in there. i wonder what you make of sort of the russian shortcomings and failures on the military front and the increasing puncture wounds with-in their disinformation war. >> well, i disagree about the puncture wounds in the disinformation war because i keep rev repeating their main target for this disinformation is not outside of russia, it's in russia. and i've heard many stories from people, you know, calling the russian friends and relatives

and literally, you know, it's a whole new metaverse of disinformation. somebody from ukraine will call their russian relative and say now with the pictures and stories out of bucha, the satellite images, how can you still support the war? the person would go, but did you see the dead bodies moving? it's all staged, all fake. that's how effective their disinformation and propaganda machine is domestically. that's why i keep saying anyone with a fan base in russia, you need to be telling the truth, using the trust that you have, like metallica, you know, the proverbial mandarin from "ironman 3." putin listens to metallica and he's not going to hear you but others will. and, you know, you should talk to a fan base in russia and try and puncture that machine because the last thing we need is 100 million people, zombified

and dehumanized. >> stay with us. i want to bring julia in on this, who was nodding as you were saying that. much of what i understand over the last six weeks about russia, i understand from her reporting there. your authorities about how president putin is emboldened but propped in this catastrophic military effort by what igor is describing. the bucha-free disinformation chamber in which this population exists. >> i think unfortunately igor is exactly right. now that -- these puncture wounds were only seen from outside. they're not perceptible from the inside. if anything, kind of the firmament has gotten even more dark and even more puncture free now that pretty much all independent russian media is

dead or in exile. i mean, it's gone. and i have spent the last few weeks watching way too much kremlin television, and i have to saysay, you know, if i had n other information, if i were older, if i didn't know how to use the internet well, if i didn't know how to use a vpn link, no other information, i would totally believe this stuff. i think a lot of it is also because of, you know, because people want to believe it, because they don't want to think that they're bad people, that their country is capable of carrying out war crimes. nobody wants to be on the side of evil. and i think there are a lot of russians who want to believe what their country -- what their government is telling them. the machine is pretty sophisticated. it's not that it gives them a different version of what happened. it just erases the idea of truth

by presenting so many different possibilities. you know, the corpses were actually the corpses of russians shot by ukrainians and you can tell by their arm bands. maybe they weren't corpses at all. like igor said, they were move, which they weren't. so, are they russian corpses, ukrainian corpses, not corpses at all? the truth is unknowable. we might as well remove ourselves from the discussion and let our government handle this. what i worry about is when the war is over, russians won't know why the world is so angry at them. >> i mean, the part that is so haunting is there was this notion six weeks ago that when russian soldiers started coming home dead, that that -- what you just described might shatter. and there's new reporting in "the new york times" that suggest that's not the case at all. it was only with his brother's

death he said in a phone interview that he started paying attention to the war raging 50 miles from his house. there would be protests, he says -- he works in the freight business, referring to the awareness of the russian public at large, but for others the grim news of casualties is only hardening a determination to defeat ukraine and support putin's conflict with the west. if americans didn't supply weapons to the ukrainian nazis, there would be no deaths. someone lost a 22-year-old in the military, my personal opinion is we should whack america with a nuclear bomb and that's it so they stop getting involved in other country es' business. i wonder what this portends for policy decisions about what you said, how this ends. it was interesting to me that you even hear, you know, the support for this maximalist position, which every single policy consideration by the west, the hesitation on the weapons, the reluctance, the

constant saying what we don't do instead of what we will do to help ukraine seems to have at least some perhaps tangential tie in russian public opinion. >> well, what's interesting about what he was saying in that "new york times" article is what you hear in russian tv, this, like, casual, totally casual approach to the use of nuclear weapons, constantly brandishing them, constantly talking about how they could just drop one on america and show them who's boss and end this thing. that's very different from the discussion we're having here, obviously. i think there's precedent for this, a lot of precedent, unfortunately, in russian history. there's a wonderful book by the nobel literature prize winner from 2015, a book about the soviet war in afghanistan, soviet invasion of afghanistan.

she writes -- she was a correspondent there and writes about all these soviet soldiers, 18-, 19-year-old, who had no idea why they were there, who were getting killed and wounded in these horrible, grizzly ways. after the book came out, the mothers of these dead soldiers sued her because they didn't want to believe that their children had died for nothing. they felt that she was tarnishing their memory by saying that they had died for nothing. i think we really underestimate the psychological imperative that a lot of people have to feel like in russia, especially, that they're on the right side, that their children aren't being killed for nothing, and also the power of the propaganda machine, which is now -- which now has complete sway in russia. there's really no other information getting in unless people are going out and looking for it. and honestly, again, i would totally find it convincing if i didn't know what was really going on, if i didn't have other

portals of information. it's really -- it's a really powerful and sophisticated machine. one other thing i'll say is that it has really hardened the population and created less room for putin to retreat. before we thought, you know, maybe putin would take a settlement and use the propaganda machine to spin it as a great victory at home. but when we started seeing signs coming out of the talks in istanbul last week that there might be a compromise and that russia might drop some of its demands, you saw on russian television very important people in the russian system saying absolutely not, no compromise, we have to finish this thing, we want total and complete victory, kind of pushing back against any potential compromise. so the russians are set up i think unfortunately to want to keep fighting this for a long time after throwing more meat

into the meat grinder. >> igor, the counter sort of point so that, not to disagree with anything that julia said, came -- i heard from a former senior intelligence official who said putin's support being rock solid is not unrelated to russian disinformation. the very sophisticated nature of which is to make us accept it as truth. julia can assert it as trooupt because she's watching kremlin tv. but how do american journalists know that's true? who took a real fall? who responded? the intelligence official's point was putin has cracks and fissures in his support that we don't see from here, but you might see them from there. where in your assessment are they? >> well, i would say definitely i'm seeing a few signals i find promising and surprising, especially in the fight between his spokesperson, peskov, and

the mandarin. that's something unusual for russia. another important point, it's only russia that is suffering from that kind of use of propaganda. i mean, look, let me remind you that certain conspiracy theories and narratives in the u.s. have led the country in january 2020 where nobody would have believed it would be, you know. and that's what propaganda does. now, an important point here is that, you know, one thing russia uses usually to defend this propaganda is, you know, this notion of freedom of speech. and i think we should support freedom of speech. so no show should be banned. no channel should be banned. what we should be doing again is not attacking those people who are the target audience of those

people but supporting them. way it works in russia, first they attack with propaganda and secondly they are victimized and dehumanized, so that way they've been made a victim and they're looking to propaganda to make them feel good again. so it's all about education and critical thinking but, you know, with a carrot, not a stick. >> your president seems to understand that nuance quite expertly. i watched the 90-minute interview he did. there were real russian journalists no longer in moscow. i wonder if that is sort of something you've talked about with president zelenskyy and your prior work with him, not something he seems to be putting into action on a daily basis, igor. >> well, look, let me explain the situation to you. there are many problems facing

the world right now, but one of the biggest problems is we are stuck in this bubble of formalism, nearly impenetrable. we're used to running things the old way, and despite all the change in the world we don't want to change. and, you know, we use, like, our expert positions, our experience from the past to excuse ourselves from being in bat. it's a dangerous situation because if you stand firmly on your two feet on the running treadmill, you'll fall off. storytelling. i have two degrees. first is law degree, the second is -- guess which one is more useful to me in the 21st century? >> tell me your stories. thanks for spending time with us. when we come back, after weeks of public and political pressure, the justice department is reportedly moving toward an investigation of how the

ex-president mishandled classified presidential documents. what that might look like and is it enough for criticism of merrick garland's doj? plus -- >> the ais are 53, the nays are 47, and this nomination is confirmed. [ applause ]. >> an historic day in washington, d.c., the first black woman has been confirmed to the u.s. supreme court, bringing more diversity and expertise to this exclusive club of nine overcoming a barrage of conservative opposition and attacks. our panel joins us on that. later in the program, the effort to preserve democracy and ensure that january 6th does not happen again. one of donald trump's biggest critics respond to his latest lies about that day. she happens to be his niece, mary trump. your home... for adventure.

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"the washington post" says the department of justice has begun to take steps to investigate former president trump's removal of presidential records. sources telling the "washington post" the probe remains in the early stages. it's not clear if justice department officials have begun reviewing any materials. earlier this year, the national archives confirmed that donald trump took 15 boxes of documents to mar-a-lago when he left office. some of those documents were clearly marked classified, including documents at the top-secret level. doj has come under fire recently

for failing to take a more public posture on where the investigations against the disgraced ex-president and members of his administration stand. meanwhile, the chair of the house oversight committee sent a letter to a.g. garland saying the doj is, quote, obstructing her committee's probe into trump's recordkeeping. my panel joins me now. both are msnbc contributors. jackie, what are you and your colleagues reporting? >> my colleague matt and i broke the news this morning that the justice department has finally started to take some steps to investigate the former president's removal of those 15 boxes from mar-a-lago, some of which were labeled top secret, and that the probe is in its very early stages, still unclear if the justice department has actually started looking at what

is in those 15 boxes or started to interview the people that were handling those boxes during their long journey from the white house to mar-a-lago and then back to the national archives. what is clear is that the justice department is facing increased political pressure to disclose its plans for the case. that's why we saw a let from the house oversight committee this morning accusing the doj of basically obstructing the oversight committee's investigation into the president's -- the former president's treatment of the presidential records act. >> i want to read this part of the letter and understand what the congresswoman is saying. "in response to a request in february for the records, the national archives wrote with respect to your kwr for information about the contents of the 15 boxes, based on our consultation with doj, we are unable to provide any comment."

is that how we know it's under investigation, or how do we -- i guess what the congresswoman's letter captures is this real sense that somebody has to be all over this, on top of this, and we want to proceed with our investigation, this is our purview. how do we know for sure doj is investigating this and when will we see fruits of that investigation? >> i'd be stunned if doj were not investigating these boxes not only as a criminal matter but as a counterintelligence matter. they need to find out who had access to these documents. top secret is a very high level of classification. it is defined as -- if these documents were to be disclosed it would result in exceptionally grave damage to the national security. so the first step is to find out who saw what was in these? there's sometimes a spill, so even if nothing was done

intentionally, was there mishandling such that could have been viewed by someone who might make ill use of it or a hostile foreign adversary, who saw it? they need to look there. then of course there's the possibility of criminal prosecution, if it was mishandled intentionally, shared with a foreign adversary, or even handled in the manner that was extremely negligent, you know, gross negligence standard. but i do think that the congresswoman has a point, which is that typically what happens is the doj's office of legislative affairs will respond and say, you know, we can't provide these for you at this time because we're investigating, whatever that may be. so the complete stone wall here does strike me as perhaps not the best course for doj to take. they could say we're reviewing a matter, something that gives something to the public. >> jackie, most of our conversations about the tensions

between capitol hill and doj are around the very vocal frustrations and comments from members of the 1/6 committee about the status enforcing those subpoenas, specifically from many meadows, but i suppose we'll see what that i do with mr. dan scavino and peter navarro. this letter had that tone. the congresswoman's letter, if you read it that way, is voicing frustration and exasperation with doj. >> yeah. and just for context's sake, the national archives had sent the committee a let that are we cite in our reporting on march 28th saying that they could not provide the oversight committee with any of the materials, which includes a detailed inventory of what is in those 15 boxes because of the doj. this letter back to the doj from carolyn maloney clearly expressed those frustrations

that arose out of this march 28th letter. but this seems to be a reoccurring theme here lately. members of congress being extraordinarily frustrated with the justice department, that they thought would be a little more on their side in a post-trump era. but the argument we've heard from justice department officials all i long has been this idea that, you know, it's a very high bar to actually charge the former president with vie lating the presidential records act. but what we've heard counter to that time and time again is that the justice department still should investigate this. otherwise, you know, what is the point of having presidential records statutes to begin with. it would further encourage people like president trump to just completely and flagrantly disregard a lot of these mechanisms and processes that are in place for the benefit of the american public. >> an important development. thank you for join is delivering us to talk about it today. the other big, huge story

out of washington, d.c., president joe biden congratulating judge ketanji brown jackson in white house today as the u.s. senate voted on her historic confirmation to the supreme court. after an ugly few weeks on the republican side leading up to it, we'll reflect on what today means to all americans. that's next. and only fda approp that improves age-related blurry near vision. wait, what? it sounded like you just said an eye drop that may help you see up close. i did. it's an innovative way to... so, wait. i don't always have to wear reading glasses? yeah! vuity™ helps you see up close. so, i can see up close with just my eyes? uh-huh. with one drop in each eye, once daily. in focus? yep. [laughs] like, really? really. vuity™ is a prescription eye drop to help you see up close. ow! wait, what? wait. wait? wait, what? see for yourself. use vuity™ with caution in night driving and hazardous activities in poor light.

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(johnny cash) ♪ i've traveled every road in this here land! ♪ most common side-effects are headache and eye redness. ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ the ayes are 53, the nays

are 47. and this nomination is confirmed. [ applause ] an historic vote in the u.s. senate confirming judge ketanji brown jackson to the united states supreme court. of course she becomes the first black woman to sit on the u.s. supreme court. here was judge jackson watching the vote with president joe biden, who nominated her just 42 days ago. they watched that moment we played you together, bipartisan support in the end for her place on the nation's highest court from all 50 democrats and three republicans, which these days is not nothing. much more than the simple senate majority than she needed. judge jackson will officially be sworn in this summer when justice stephen breyer's term ends. it's a major win for the country, for the president, for representation, and for democrats overall. she faced opposition from every republican who sits on the senate judiciary committee amid

six weeks of polarizing and offensive attempts by some to paint her as some sort of left-wing radical soft on crime. republicans unsuccessfully trying to discredit her impressive background and record, bringing more judicial experience to the job than any sitting justice when they were nominated. let's bring into our coverage, danielle holly walker at the table. eddie glaude, from princeton university, an msnbc political analyst. and joe lockhart is here, former white house press secretary for president bill clinton. danielle, your reaction to today's confirmation. >> it was a really exciting moment. i was in a packed courtroom with my students. 70% of my students are black women. there was a huge celebration as we saw the confirmation occur. i think this is an important moment for all americans to see that the doors of opportunity

are open at every level of the legal profession and to have such an outstanding brilliant jurist like judge jackson be the first black woman on the supreme court and also her background as a public defender. i think there is so much to celebrate on this historic day. >> daniel, tell me more about what your students said. i've seen some reporting from some women saying imfine to be second. my career, i saw dee dee meyers at the podium and thought i could do, that maybe not the white house, but i could to-do a job like that. it's huge. >> we have to remember that only 70 black women in the history of the united states have ever served on the federal judiciary, so this isn't just about one supreme court seat. it's about the idea that black women should be serving at every level of our federal judiciary and every level for our state judiciary. and i think it really gives my

students and students around the country and people, little girls around the country, the opportunity to say even though i may never become a supreme court justice, i do have the opportunity to become a judge, to become a law firm partner, to become a federal public defender, all of the things they saw in justice jackson's background, they now know they can also do those things. it's a powerful moment. i was the first black student in the south, and it meant a great deal. i wasn't the last. she will be the first but not the last and it is a powerful moment for that reason. >> danielle, from the sublime to the ugly, retreatment from all the republicans, not all of them but many of the republicans from the judiciary committee, you know, my view a national embarrassment. what do you think about what she was subjected to to get to here today? >> you know, it was just really

disappointing. disheartening, especially when we were promised a respectful process. i think the treatment she received by many of the republican senators was absolutely unacceptable. we know she was barraged with negative talking points that had nothing to do with her record, for example, asked about critical race theory. that has nothing to do with the work she's done as a judge, won't have anything to do with her work as a supreme court justice, yet she was being asked those questions. i think it was a very unfair hearing she got in many ways but we saw her rise above it, even though she shouldn't have had to do that, she showed tremendous amounts of grace. >> on that point, lind cie graham is the human carnation of the button that pops on the pants revealing your covid weight game. sloated for her last time. >> right.

>> as though we needed to out the republicans for their maniacal motives. >> we know the republican party in so many ways revealed -- it reveals it's a citadel of hypocrisy. we saw that lone image of mitt romney clapping for judge brown jackson while the democrats celebrated. all the others kind of walked out cynically as if something didn't happen that was, in fact, historic. i was thinking about this. there are these moments in our political lives where there is the eruption of possibility. >> i love that. >> what do i mean by that? moments that allow our political imaginations to expand and these moment where is something we didn't think was possible -- we had jokes about the first black president, whether dave chappelle or richard prior, we thought about it. but this never crossed our mind. just imagine what's going to happen this summer. the first black vice president

and the first supreme court justice. that's going to happen. and so suddenly what we think is possible expands. it doesn't mean it's going to happen, but the world that's possible comes to our imaginations, so the political imagination expands for a moment. now we ask, now what? but just for the moment, there's the eruption of possibility. >> and i don't know enough about our broken sort of pessimistic politics right now to know this will happen, but president joe biden should be associated with that eruption of possibility. this was a brilliant nomination. this was as clean of a nomination process as you can get in this badly hobbled body that debased itself in that committee with their treatment of her. but this is not something that happens about a president who makes a thoughtful pick and a white house that runs a tight

confirmation process. >> yeah. i think it's a little bit of inside baseball for how you run the nomination process. you're right. this was flawless. and they're not always flawless. we certainly can remember the last or two ago, mr. kavanagh, that was not flawless, and that was the fault of some of the staff who were involved. i couldn't agree more with my colleague, and i can't add to it because i can't say it more eloquently. but what i have been struck with in the last few days and months is not what's being said. it's what's not being said. >> hmm. >> no one in the republican party stands up to someone who calls her a pedophile or implies it. no one in the republican party stand up and says she's not a political terrorist. no one in the republican party gets up and says she's not a nazi sympathizer.

there's no floor for the offensiveness of the republican party, but there's also no one willing to stand up and say it's wrong. >> i want to ask you about that. it also represents an entirely new frame in terms of what constitutes a strong leader, but it used to be the pinnacle of weakness not to stand up to bullies, but for republicans, that is who they are. no one is going anywhere. much more from today's historic confirmation vote when we come back. stay with us.

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the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns. i'm the father of a young black girl. i know how much it means for judge jackson to have navigated the double jeopardy of racism and sexism to now stand in the glory of this moment. >> the manufactured accusations that were thrown at her by some of our committee during our hearings not only fell flat but they have been refuted and debunked by serious voices across the political spectrum. >> just a couple democratic senators on the floor today on what judge ketanji brown jackson faced to make this history we have been celebrating today. just three republicans in the senate voted to confirm her to

the u.s. supreme court. we're back with our panel. danielle, i want to ask you what comes next, not politically, but -- well, maybe politically. but what is the next important thing to happen? what needs to build on this momentum today? >> i think one of the things that we saw the difference between this moment and the opportunity to nominate a justice in 2016 who could have been a black woman, i think the difference is the pipeline. and what we've seen president biden do is really build that pipeline of diverse judges at the district court and the appellate court level, so i think that's what's next for the federal judiciary. but i will say that the supreme court is at a time where we are going to see the supreme court make decisions that are very troubling to many people around the country, and so we can't take this confirmation as confirmation of the institution of the supreme court because i think what we'll see over the next several months is serious criticism of that institution.

>> yeah, i mean, it faces both an incredible ideological imbalance and an incredible crisis of public trust. i think the lowest public approval ratings in the history. but danielle makes a point you were making in the break, that one of the uncelebrated accomplishments of the biden administration has been what she just described, placing and confirming all sorts of brilliant future potential nominees to the u.s. supreme court. >> yeah, joe biden ran on the idea that he wanted his government to look like america. and that, he's delivered on. he made many promises that he is still trying to, but that, he has, and if you look at the cabinet and the sub cabinet and the judiciary, it's -- he sets records for any other president, even president obama. and it's -- that has a fill-the-bench feel to it also,

because the subcabinet people will then be cabinet people and the cabinet people will then maybe run for president, and these are much more diverse. >> and then, further down the bench, to keep that going, you know, what senator warnock is talking about is what you and i have taubd about. a lot of our conversations are real, but they're grim and to have little kids grow up in a world -- for my son, president obama is the first president he ever saw on tv or knows about and now to have a cabinet that looks like america is promising. >> the eruption of the possible. we are looking at what is and what could be, two worlds standing next to each other, something clinging to life, tom cotton, those folks, something desperate to be born. the question of who we will be as a nation, who we are as a people really is bound up with the reality of the moral choice that's in front of us. which of these worlds will we choose? >> i know where you and i land on that. it's the only pathway out. danielle holley-walker, it's

such a pleasure to have you as part of our coverage, joe, i say the same to you. eddie sticks around. you can check out but you can never leave, eddie. when we come back, investigating donald trump, one of his loudest critics, his own niece, mary trump, weighs in on the latest developments. sflochlt on the latest developments sflochlt i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you

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i had no idea how much i wamy case was worth. c call the barnes firm to find out what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ ♪♪ the republican party has to make a choice. we can either be loyal to our constitution or loyal to donald trump, but we cannot be both. >> hillary clinton said a couple weeks ago that if he runs and wins, that could be the end of our democracy. do you share that fear? >> i do. we entrust the survival of our

republic into the hands of the chief executive. and when a president refuses to tell the mob to stop, when he refuses to defend any of the coordinate branches of government, he can not be trusted. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. he can not be trusted. could usher in the end of our democracy. they're chilling words. we heard them months ago in that interview with liz cheney. she's the trump foil of choice and the vice chair of the 1/6 select committee, congresswoman liz cheney, we play that again today because the threat that she's describing, that the ex-president poses to our democracy, and therefore to each and every one of us, remains perhaps more potent today than when she made those comments. in a brand-new interview with josh dawsey of the "washington post," the twice impeached ex-president reiterates the lies that fueled the violence and the deadly insurrection in the first place and takes zero

responsibility for the angry, violent mob of his supporters who descended on the capitol and abused capitol police officers. in fact, his revision is that in hindsight, he wished he'd been able to join them. quote, trump said he deserved more credit and that he pressed to march on the capitol with his supporters but was stopped by his security detail. quote, secret service said i couldn't go. i would have gone there in a minute, he said. yeah. when asked about the seven-plus hour gap in the white house phone logs from that day, trump said this. quote, he remembered talking to house minority leader kevin mccarthy, congressman jim jordan and other people during that period. he said he had a, quote, very good memory but could not say exactly who he talked to that afternoon or when, later adding, why would i care about who called me? if congressmen were calling me, what difference did it make?

there was nothing secretive about it. there was no secret. i'll say. apparently there was, though, right? there always is, or else those calls would be featured on call logs and turned over with all the other documents. all these details are pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that the january 6th select committee is aggressively working to piece back together to make sure that an attack like january 6th never, ever happens again. and while we luckily have not seen another angry mob of trump supporters storm the u.s. capitol, we have seen the same assault on our democracy manifest itself in many other ways over and over again all across this country. like with the gop instilling a deep and totally unfounded distrust in not just our election results but in the way our elections are run. it's led the way -- paved the way for the passage of restrictive voting laws in dozens of states that make it harder for everyone's voice to be heard, especially democratic voices, voices in communities of color.

and the constant spreading of the lie that he didn't lose and lose bigly in 2020 and the existence of voter fraud that undergird all of these new measures is a toxin. we must repeat, there was no widespread voter fraud that would have changed the outcome of the 2020 election. even bill barr thinks that. the danger of these actions is why efforts to protect our democracy at this moment are vital, like this announcement today from donald trump's niece, mary. mary is going to chair a new political action committee that's called the democracy defense fund, which will work to elect pro-democracy candidates from state legislative offices all the way up to the u.s. senate. it is huge news. it's where we start the hour. joining us now, mary trump, former president trump's niece, the host of the mary trump show podcast and the author of "too much and never enough." eddie glaude remains with me onset. mary trump, this was like crawling through the deserts, so

thirsty, and reaching that sort of pond of possible relief that here is something that might actually shore up our democracy from the daily assault. i have to ask first your reaction to that new interview that josh dawsey does with your uncle, whose only regret about the insurrection turned deadly is that he wasn't marching with them. >> yeah, as usual, nothing he says in that interview is the truth. but it's less about the content of the interview than the fact that it even happened. one of the reasons we are in worse shape than we were when liz cheney sat for her interview, as you mentioned, is because there has been no accountability. democracy is literally on a knife's edge, and every day that passes, the donald is allowed to continue to spread his lies, that the republican party he

leads, which is a countermajoritarian, anti-democratic party, they're able to, i guess you could say, keep their base riled up. meanwhile, they're doing everything in their power to make sure that a lot of people in this country can't vote in november, so donald proves yet again that he is not to be trusted and that he doesn't care about this country or democracy. he's just happy he got away with it. >> what do you think about the comments that he makes about talking to jim jordan and kevin mccarthy and saying, they're not secret? i mean, i heard that and hoped that someone was writing out a subpoena for those two gentlemen. >> one would hope. for sure. because i have a feeling that a lot of the people involved -- directly involved in january 6th have gotten complacent because it doesn't seem that anything's happening. meanwhile, almost every time he opens his mouth, donald's

implicating somebody else. so what's troubling about those comments is, one, the flippensy with which he said it, as if it doesn't matter, and two, that he thinks that even if he is telling the truth about that, nothing will accrue to him. so, it's just a continuation of the same trend we've seen that you have been covering it feels like forever now, nicole. >> it does. it feels like forever because of what you just said. i mean, no one has held him accountable, and i think, to your point, that he acts as though no one will hold him accountable because no one held him accountable. who do you blame for that? >> that's kind of a complicated question because as you say, it has been going on forever. it's sort of a disease that keeps metastasizing. and nobody is doing anything to stop it. currently, i blame the republican party for continuing

to look to him for approval, for continuing to bow down to him, which is absurd, and continuing to perpetuate his lies and failing, time after time, to protect the american people because clearly, right now, the republican party, as it is currently constituted, is only interested in hanging on to power no matter how illegitimately. >> there is a question that i have had on my mind and you're the only person that can answer it. how does the bizarre sycophantic bubble split along jared and ivanka sitting for hours-long interviews with the 1/6 committee while peter navarro, you know, races down to mar-a-lago to shove the hot dogs wrapped in a bun into his mouth and, like, high five donald trump about being held in contempt. how does the family end up on the other side of navarro in terms of being responsive to an invitation to cooperate?

>> honestly, i think it has everything to do with what the various parties -- where the various parties think their future lies. i think i've said before that if ivanka and jared feel that continuing to support and defend donald won't work out well for them, they will throw him under the bus. so, i think right now, their mission is -- and i'm not saying that's what happened. it would be a last resort, certainly, but i think their mission for the time being is to appear measured and reasonable. >> i want to ask you about your uncle. he seems like at any moment he could just trot out the results of his test again, banana, tomato, man, woman, tamale.

how does he seem to you? >> i try really hard not to pay too much attention to him, quite honestly, because i'm trying to keep my blood pressure down, but i honestly think a lot of what's happening is a reaction to the fact that his world has shrunk considerably, and his ability -- as has his ability to get attention. which is why every once in a while, you'll see him say something outlandish that will get a lot of play in the media and which is why he jumps at the chance to be interviewed by "the washington post." >> what's your advice, then, for how to deal with him? should he be ignored? i mean, he's a threat to our democracy, so we can't ignore everything he does. but what is your advice to how to treat him? >> no, we cannot ignore him, and it's horrifying that we have to say that. but again, we have the republican party to thank for it. republican leadership had so many off-ramps away from him,

and the fact that they did not take january 6th to be one is an incredible indictment against them. what we need to do is stay -- pay attention to who in his orbit is making moves, who is continuing to seek his advice, if you want to call it that, to seek his approval, to seek his endorsements, and more than anything, it doesn't necessarily have directly to do with him, but we need to help people understand just what is at stake in this coming election, in 2022, and help people understand as well that the question really isn't, is donald going to run in 2024? the question really is, should he be allowed to sno? and figure out a way to make that stick. because otherwise, we're just

legitimizing him in the same way he's been legitimized by the lack of accountability. >> i want to ask you about your efforts, and i want to read a little bit from the announcement. the mission of the democracy defense fund is threefold. one, it's to focus on key house and senate races by funding both at-risk incumbents and democratic challengers with the best chance of flipping red seats. two, to invest in local and state races with electoral significance. three, to support existing organizations in their efforts to protect the voting rights of all americans. these are the kinds of things -- except for the first one -- that we used to do in young democracies in other countries. i read this, and all i could think of was, oh my god, this is what we desperately need here. explain. >> well, yeah, it is a sad commentary on how far we've fallen that such a thing is necessary. and i'm not at all suggesting that there aren't other

organizations doing extraordinary work out there, which is why one thing we will be doing is supporting such organizations because there's no need to do the work twice, right? so, we want to be laser focused on candidates and races that have serious electoral consequences. for example, a.g. and secretary of state races at the local level, people who have an impact on how elections are held and how results are presented. so, one of the things we're fighting against, too, and another huge reason i think that the democracy defense fund is necessary, is because people don't, i think, quite get the enormity of what is at stake here. part of the reason for that is that the biden administration has been treated like a normal administration that followed another normal administration, when nothing could be farther from the truth. so, we need to help people

understand not just that but that we have, right now, one party, the democratic party, that is pro-democracy and another party, the republican party, that is not. so, if we can help people see the extent to which republicans do not want most americans to vote through voter suppression, through extreme gerrymandering and through what i think is the most troubling thing, voter subversion, then you know, they're going to also -- they're also going to get away with things they shouldn't be getting away with, so people need to be informed, and part of that is also helping them know which races to focus on because there are so many people running. >> one of the things that i think bolsters -- i felt that way since 2015 when donald trump sort of -- it was so clear from the very beginning of the republican primary that he had just captured something with the republican base and then he proceeded to wipe out 17 -- i

won't call them all normal but more normal kind of republican candidates. and something that always has struck me is that he benefits so much from asymmetry. and i think what you're describing is, you know, he was treated as sort of a normal ex-president and this president now, we want to level set and return to, you know, holding him accountable as though he just took over from a normal republican who he disagreed with about healthcare and taxes. no. no. he took over from someone who wanted to pull america out of nato, and i wonder as you watch the war rage in ukraine, what you think about the damage your uncle has done. >> it's devastating. and one of the things that's most devastating about it is that the republican party, which supported him and his putin worship, all along the way, up until about a month ago, are trying to whitewash that record by pretending that donald wasn't

impeached for trying to undermine the ukrainian democracy. one of the reasons that ukraine was in a better position when russia illegally invaded them was because of the delay caused by donald, deliberately, and illegally, so for the republican party to turn around and pretend that they've been pro-ukraine and anti-putin all along is another problem. because it's just another way of normalizing horrific anti-american, anti-democratic behavior. >> yeah, i mean, as mary turns her focus to elections, eddie, it seems like a real strategic imperative for the democrats to be able to message on multiple fronts. inflation is real. people have real economic anxieties and the republican party is a threat to our democracy. >> absolutely. i mean, look, we have a kind of repetition or rhyming of history here. we know in the 19th century, after the civil war, that the south really wasn't held to

account. and then we were thrown into the dark ages after the murder of reconstruction, the collapse of reconstruction, the death of reconstruction, its deliberate dismantling, and so what did we get? not until 1954 do we get brown v. board, so here we have josh hawley, ted cruz, mark meadows, steve bannon, donald trump, running around as if they did not pose an existential threat to our democracy. we've allowed a party that has taken advantage of our liberal processes for illiberal ends, and so it seems to me that the democrats have to go on the aggressive -- on the offensive in this regard, but it seems also that there's a fear here like it was in the 19th century, a fear that 74 million people who support, voted for donald trump, that somehow, if we hold these people accountable, they will themselves rebel, that there's a worry, a fear. so, actually, we're focusing on -- and this is something i wanted you to think about with me a little bit.

we focus on donald trump, we focus on these politicians not being held to account, but he took advantage of something that was in the republican base. >> no doubt. no doubt. and mary, i want to pull you back in. i cover ukraine every day for six weeks so i'm going to this debate that a lot of pentagon supporters have said, this debate about offensive and defensive weapons. it's a debate about offensive and defensive political strategies, right? democrats are so politically timid, and they have all the facts on their side. they have all the public opinion on their side. and they have the side that's actually interested in protecting america as it has existed as a democracy, and i wonder, mary, as you step into this political space, what your strategy is for sort of fortifying the political steel in the spines of democrats. >> well, if they're not already terrified, then maybe one thing we need to do is get them terrified.

because it isn't simply that we are losing ground. it's that we're also running out of time. i do not believe we have until 2024 to turn things around, and if, by some horror, donald did get back in, that is the end of nato. that is the end of the western alliance. we see globally the potential impact he had in other countries. orban just got, quote, unquote, re-elected, and marine le pen is unbelievably doing well in france. there's this domino effect. if elected democrats can't see it, then i'm not entirely sure what we can do to change their minds, so we need to go to individual americans and again help them understand what's going on. give them tools. if you can donate, fantastic. we'll help you figure out the best place to put those donations. but if you can't, talk to other

people. encourage other people to vote. register voters, et cetera. there are a lot of things we can do. but again, there needs to be urgency, because this is not just about inflation. this isn't just about job numbers. this is literally, as mr. glaude said, what we want this country to be, who we believe we are. >> and eddie, i think you and i share this frustration that there is an earnestness about which democrats go about policy debates and they're so committed to making sure they explain the process that they lose what mary just articulated. the desperation to act urgently, to protect our democracy. >> and the irony is that illiberal forces, these people who don't give a damn about democracy, are taking advantage of our faith in democracy to undermine it. >> that's right. >> they're using the process

itself, so they're waiting until midterms because they're banking on flipping everything. and so, it seems to me that if we don't understand the stakes, we will have to face the consequences. >> oh my god. so, how's that for pressure, mary? how's that? i think we're going to have to put a pin in this and make this a regular thursday thing. mary trump, i'm so excited to hear that you're doing this, and we'll keep a close eye on the pac's efforts and please throw up a smoke signal, we'll reconvene this group and we'd love to hear what you see as you get involved in races all across the country. >> thank you, nicole, i'm really grateful you had me on today. thanks. >> and eddie glaude, no one better to sit at this table with me. thank you so much for being back in the studio with us. when we come back, time after time after time, the disgraced ex-president's big lie about the 2020 election has been disproven in court after court, recount after recount.

now, again, a republican attorney general this, one in arizona, egged on by trump, failed to find, again, any evidence of fraud, again, or conspiracy in the state's biggest county. and yet, the lie continues to metastasize there. that new reporting is next. later, mounting evidence that further undermines moscow's claims that they're not committing war crimes in ukraine. what russian communications intercepted by german intelligence reveal about the brutality of vladimir putin's war and its deliberate targeting of civilians. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline ws after a quick break. medusa lived with a hideous curse. uhh, i mean the whole turning people to stone thing was a bit of a buzz kill, right? so she ordered sunglasses with prime, one day delivery. ♪♪ clever girl. people realized she's actually hilarious once you get to know her.

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in the face of really big, tall mountains of evidence to the contrary, the twice-impeached ex-president is unable to let go of what is seemingly the only thing he likes to talk about, the 2020 election was stolen from him, which it was not, and that president joe biden did not actually win all of the battleground states that he did win. despite all the legal battles and the crazy, now unhinged claim from his base and associates, the big lie was delivered another major blow yesterday in arizona of all places where republican attorney general issued an interim report citing, wait for it, no evidence of widespread voter fraud there or irregularities associated with the 2020 presidential election. again, our disclaimer here, joe biden defeated donald trump in arizona by more than 10,000

votes, and third party contractors, even those guys known as the cyber ninjas who were hired by the trumpy republicans to review the results in maricopa also concluded that joe biden was the rightful winner. they even concluded that joe biden had won more votes than what was counted and recounted on election night. well, he raised concerns about some voting procedures in the state, he states his office has left no stone unturned in the aftermath of the 2020 election. joining us onset, vaughn hillyard. you've been on this beat, not just voter fraud but sort of where disinformation and political fervor meet the facts and it doesn't -- it seems that what this proves is it doesn't matter who's presenting the facts. it doesn't matter if they're nonpartisan election officials. it doesn't matter if they're the republican governor. it doesn't matter if they're the wacky cyber ninja is i'm guessing you're going to tell me it's not a republican attorney

general. >> if there was somebody in the united states motivated to find fraud, it was the attorney general of arizona. he's running for the u.s. senate in a competitive primary to take on mark kelly. he's not the runaway favorite here. donald trump just in january held the rally in arizona. who was at that rally? the two other senate candidates. who was not? mark. but he was the one that he called out on stage and called on him to go find that mass fraud. it was donald trump's own words there about mass fraud suggesting, quote, it's far more than necessary to win the state of arizona and in talking about mark, he said, quote, i think he's going to do his job. this was a pressure campaign and if you go back to november of 2020, mark bernovich said there was no evidence of fraud that was going to overturn the election. it wasn't until after donald trump was clearly going to remain relevant in this party and he announced his own senate bid that last fall, he announced this six-month investigation, which led to this report here that came out just yesterday. >> and you know, all of us, i think, at this point, are

students of what the pressure campaign actually look like in multiple states. donald trump didn't even use new language on new pressure campaigns, right? it's the same stuff he said to raechbs in georgia. it's the same stuff he used in michigan, same stuff this campaign used in pennsylvania. he uses it here, he gets another recount more than a year later and the same result. joe biden wins. >> the republicans who are responsible for proving this that's fraud and conspiracy have been unable to do so, brian kemp, brad raffensperger, doug ducey, this was the certification that mark signed after the 2020 election. his signature. >> the kind of thing trump would take a sharpie to, right? >> but suddenly, mark realizes his relevancy in this party is essentially nothing without donald trump by his side here and that is where it has been an effort and god bless the man to a certain extent. he couldn't prove mass fraud and that's where they're outlining these ideas of there's questions about procedures and the signature verification process but they don't provide any evidence. his report provides no evidence

of one single allegation in which a signature on a ballot did not match the signature within the system. they also questioned, you know, there's 100,000 or 200,000 ballots that went from ballot drop boxes to the election center and they didn't know where they went from point a to point b, but again, every single ballot was accounted for by maricopa county elections officials who are republicans. >> what happens next? >> when we're talking about the likes of mark and doug ducey, who have been unable to prove this here, they're looking at being replaced by those who want to undermine the 2024 presidential election. i was in michigan at trump's rally just on saturday night, and he said, this is more than about 2022. this is about about 2024. as he stood there with the likes of the leading gop gubernatorial candidate, also with the likes of the leading candidate in michigan, james craig, and i think we have a little bit of my back and forth with him because that he has folks are having a hard time coming up with reality.

take a listen. if he was standing, former president trump were standing here right now, would you tell him that you would have certified joe biden as the winner of the 2020 election in michigan? >> i don't know if i would say i would have certified because, see, as you heard me -- >> would you have certified it? >> i would have to understand the facts. and the facts are this. i guess pence -- i don't have the authority. that's not -- >> sure, but every single county clerk, every board of canvassers here certified the election. would you not take their word? >> well, i would want -- and i have already said, i would call for a forensic audit to understand the issues so i'm not going to have you trying to back me in a corner. >> that is the leading gop candidate for governor of michigan. it's not just him. the leading candidate for governor in arizona, carrie lake, i also at cpac talked are the leading gop candidate for governor in wisconsin. rebecca. she also refused to say that she would have certified the 2020 election. and that is where this election is so pivotal, but again,

they're going to have to be in those positions potentially if they get into office of proving conspiracy and of mass fraud, and based off of the attorney general's efforts, he's had a hard time doing it. >> they're going have to prove conspiracies and mass fraud by republicans who campaigned for donald trump. it's a stretch, but i guess in today's republican party, never say never. vaughn hillyard, don't be a stranger. when we come back, german intelligence intercepts russian communications describing the indiscriminate killing of civilians in ukraine. those intercepts further undermine moscow's denials of taking part in the atrocities in places like bucha. that brand-new reporting is next. places like bucha. that brand-new reporting is next ♪ ♪

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the united nations today voted to suspend russia from the human rights council in response to overwhelming accusations of cruelty and carnage. in bucha alone, u.s. secretary of state tony blinken revealed today ukrainian authorities have already found the bodies of 410 civilians. kremlin claims of staged false flags sound more farfetched by the hour on top of anecdotal and photographic and satellite evidence of war crimes, this morning "the washington post" confirmed an earlier report in der spiegel that indicates that german foreign intelligence claimed to have intercepted radio communications between russian soldiers in which they describe -- they talk about carrying out the indiscriminate killings in ukraine.

well, those transmissions haven't been linked to bucha, they certainly speak to the broader russian strategy of brutality as a tactic. just listen to the effect it is having from our nbc news colleague, molly hunter. >> reporter: marina waved us down as we arrived in bordianka. it was horrific here, she says. you have no idea. my neighbor had to bury her son in our backyard, she says. you have to come see. she takes us through the back gate to the shallow grave, but then goes to get her neighbor, taisa. 80-year-old taisa has now buried both her children. she says her son, roman, was 57. she'll rebury him in a cemetery when this is all over. she tells me roman was shot in the back by russian troops as he was walking away. the next morning, he was dead.

the russians are liars, she says. they're all liars. her grandson, dmytro, comes over. he returned. >> ai am come back, he's already dead. >> reporter: but it was too late. how did you find out that your father had died? >> when i go here. >> joining our coverage, former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, william taylor, vice president for russia and europe of the u.s. institute of peace. and clint watts is here, former consultant to the fbi's counterterrorism division, now a distinguished research fellow at the foreign policy research institute and an msnbc national security analyst. ambassador taylor, i want to ask you about the russian penchant for brutality as a military tactic. the ukrainians seem, while horrified, not necessarily surprised to see this out of their military adversary. >> nicole, of course, they, like the world, have seen this before

from the russians. they've seen it in chechnya and grozny. they've seen it in syria, in aleppo. it's horrible. it's brutal. it's ruthless. it's war criminal. there's no doubt that it's happening. we see it before our eyes. the ukrainians see it every day. i have a good friend, actually, in the ukrainian army who was there in bucha, and he found -- he had to look to find his brother-in-law, and he found him, and the brother-in-law was killed by an air strike on his home. out in the woods. so, this is brutal, and it's evident to every ukrainian, nicole, so this is something that they have -- that we've seen, that they've seen, and they have to be held accountable. >> what does that look like, and you know, i didn't spend a lot of time covering the united nations. it's not a nimble institution. and i think president zelenskyy's speech there was

appropriate by the time the u.n. acts, it will be too late for so many ukrainian civilians. what is, in your view, the appropriate response from the west to what the world is seeing and what you just said is right, is indisputable human aros trosties and war crimes across ukraine. >> the right response is that the ukrainians have to win. they have to defeat the russians. they got some momentum right now. they've held the russians off from kyiv. big battle is coming up in the east. there's no doubt. but the ukrainians have to win, nicole, in order to hold the russians accountable. accountability goes right from the top. it goes from president putin all the way down to those soldiers. you were talking earlier about the intelligence that the germans have and that we have. we know which units are there in bucha. the we know exactly which unit

it was. it was the 64th motorized rifle regiment, and we know who the commander was. so, we can hold them accountable, but the ukrainians have to win. so, what that means is we have to provide every ounce, every bit, every ton of military equipment to the ukrainians so they can win. >> do you see, with your sort of expert knowledge and your eye, a perceptible change in any of the calculations around what military assistance we're now willing to give after the world woke up to what we woke up to saturday morning in bucha? >> i think so. i think we can see there's a new urgency. we hear of more nations. we hear some east european nations who are providing tanks, providing heavier equipment, and you also hear from the united states, the willingness to provide this kind of tanks with

the time, this kind of artillery, mlrs, the brits are going to provide the weapons to be able to undertake attacks on ships. there's a lot going on, and it has been jolted, exactly what you say, nicole, this has been jolted by what we're seeing in bucha. >> what's your assessment of vladimir putin right now? he has apparently not yet concluded -- he hasn't yet understood, he's not yet absorbed that he is losing on the battlefield. when he decides -- when he realizes that he's lost it on the battlefield, and that's not yet, it's going to come. i'm sure it will come, and when he does, then he will sit down to negotiate. and that's what needs to happen in order to first stop the fighting. there has to be a ceasefire, and then negotiations for withdrawals, but that has to happen, and president putin is the key. when he understands he's losing and has lost his main effort, then he'll sit down.

>> and what puts that in motion? is it a number of young ukrainian men who have died? is it a puncture to the disinformation strangle hold on the russian population? what makes that happen? >> that happens when the ukrainians continue to win on the battlefield. they won on the battlefield in kyiv. in chernihiv. they are now going to have a big challenge in donbas, and when they win there, that will be undeniable for president putin, so this is going to be a key battle for both sides, and the ukrainians have to win that. for them to win it, we have to support them with everything we've got. >> clint, this german reporting and the ambassador said, we have the same reporting, confirming the russian atrocities. it was pointed out to me by igor novikov, a former advisor to president zelenskyy, that that corroboration of what is clear to everyone's eyes is only

digested and really processed in the west where we didn't have a lot of skepticism about the russian conduct to begin with. that that kind of proving out and corroborating russia's role in carrying out those atrocities is very difficult to get inside russia. what's your assessment of the information war putin's waging or disinformation war. >> yeah, so, putin is definitely losing, and i think that's unusual for him in recent years. he's losing abroad, particularly in the western world. however, separately, in other parts of the world, things are going on unchanged. inside russia, if you listen to what some of the soldiers say, some of the stories that are coming out of places like mariupol, some of the stories that you hear in kyiv, they do believe that they're attacking nazis. the russian soldiers have been as brainwashed as anybody with this propaganda. they use that to justify these kinds of actions, and so inside the russian population, depending on the polling, he's either holding firm or he's

increasing his popularity because it's wartime. so, the break that has to happen has to be the russian population. i think there are a couple key things to look for. the disinformation is retired russian generals, former russian generals start speaking the truth, speak out and say, hey, look, i think we've taken a lot more losses down there in and we're not going to win in ukraine. i think it's the mothers of soldiers that it finally dawns on them because at least from their perspective, they may believe, oh, my son is still deployed to ukraine and will probably come back. they don't really have any measure of it. and then i think the other part is the war wounded and those that are returning back to russia. there are deserters. if that goes back, that's that wall of disinformation. that's where it breaks down. the reality horizon hits, and it's much more difficult for putin to keep these stories going whenever you have soldiers coming back, telling the truth about what they experienced. >> coming back to home. ambassador taylor and clint watts are sticking around. we'll be right back. clint watts are sticking around. we'll be right back.

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right. the ukrainian military surprised a lot of people. i'm sure they surprised the russians. the russians did not expect that level, that intensity of fighting coming from the ukrainians. and they had reason to ukrainians, and they had reason to misunderstand, misjudge the ukrainian military because in 2014 when they invaded the first time, the russians invaded first the ukrainian military was not in good shape. so over that eight-year period there was an intense effort to improve, retrain. the morale was higher, the leadership was better, the weapons were better. the united states gave a lot of weapons and training. this was something intentionally done, and they have taken great advantage of the kinds of equipment the americans have provided and other nato allies are providing, mainly american weapons, but nonetheless the brits, for example, are providing some new weapons right

now. the ukrainians are particularly adept at adapting those weapons to the current situation. and they've taught americans about how to use our own equipment better. so they have been extremely well-done. the work that they've done, the fighting they've been under, the success they've had in pushing the russians out of ukraine. that was an effort. that was a great success by the ukrainian military. >> and i'm squeamish to cover it as a redeployment because it seems to take into consideration the russian spin on this. it was because they lost. are deployment is what they decided to do after they were defeat. tell me how that was communicated in this disinformation chamber? >> so it's fascinating to watch because they were losing everywhere and they needed to win somewhere, and in the east is it. and what putin what he'll use now is, well, we always said we were going after donbas, that

was the original joigz. so they're going to shift back and say, see, we're going after donbas. it's a little confirming the initial rouse is they were only going for the east and instead they went straight for kyiv, they were definitely going to try to go to adesta. >> i remember you have the map. >> so i look when you see how this plays out he has to win something. we have to remember is putin is not going to go away with nothing. it's not going to happen. they're going to stay there until they have something. just imagine even in our own wars if we'd lost 20,000 soldiers and we come back from a ukraine fight in just two months and we have nothing, we'd never let our elected leaders do that. putin has to have something he can shape and mold as a victory otherwise he's in trouble. >> it's a horrifying prospect. ambassador bill taylor, thank you so much for being part of our coverage. clint watts, thank you for being here at the table.

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speaker pelosi reportedly did not attend the grid iron on saturday. it appears that event may be the connected tissue of more than a dozen infections including that of congressman adam schiff and joaquin castro perhaps attorney general merrick garland. and two more positive cases on capitol hill. congresswoman angy craig and senator susan collins. her office says she has had mild symptoms. back to speaker pelosi for a second, though. she crossed paths with president joe biden this week. fortunately the white house is saying at this point president biden tested negative. it's something we'll keep an eye on closely over the next few days. quick break for us. we will be right back. days quick break for us we will be right back. ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're so grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. welcome to a special edition of the beat because we are covering truly historic news. not historic in the way that word is sometimes used in politics and washington but literally historic, as in when the history of america is written today will be a day in the history books. i bet you know why. justice ketanji brown jackson. i say justice because she is now as of this broadcast and